Guru Granth's Authority Debated
These are the texts of the vituperative correspondences I received from Namdhari Sikhs, S. Gurbaksh Singh Ji [email@example.com], J. Budwal and firstname.lastname@example.org and my replies.
"What proof do you have that the Namdhari Sikhs are anti-Sikh? From my research the Granth Sahib became guru much later in 1873 when the singh sabha was launched so how can you say that your religion is the true one? To date I have not seen even a single history book written before the 1800s that claim Granth Sahib to be guru, so how do you justify yourself as 'Sikhs'? As you cannot answer these quesions, as no one ever has so far including the sgpc, kindly remove the Namdhari's name from your list of anti-sikhs."
Sat Sri Akal.
Gurbakhsh Singh Jee
Your e-mail has prompted me to write an article on the Shabd Guru, the perpetual Guru of the Sikhs with quotes from Gurbani and will publish it on my Website as soon as possible. Hopefully it will provide the necessary impetus to the rational Sikh scholars to take up the challenge to convince the mainstream and sectarian Sikh factions that the Guru's eternal WORD (Guru Granth Sahib), not his mortal body, is the perpetual Guru of the Sikhs and unite all Sikhs into a single entity.
Charnjit Singh Bal
Praise your guru in anyway you feel like. But don't act childish and discredit/disrespect other religions. A mature response is kindly requested. I really DON'T CARE what you have to write in reply because there's NO REPLY. The singh sabha believers have made several attempts in questioning the Authority of the Namdhari Satgurus and written many pieces of garbage books which make no sense what so ever. All of them were answered back and there was always NO REPLY. Look at the book 'Purakh Guru' published by the Namdhari Darbar about 25 years ago. It was written in reply to the many nonsense books published by the so called 'scholar' dr. ganda singh who is revered by singh sabhias as a historian-god as you will know better than me. But until today, TWENTY FIVE YEARS LATER THERE'S STILL NO REPLY to that book. No so called 'scholar' has been able to answer it back and the only thing left for them to do today is try to ban it. So it may be much wiser for you to not waste your time because unless you can reply to that book, your points are no points.
More over, I AM NOT QUESTIONING THE AUTHORITY OF YOUR GURU OR RELIGION. I saw in your sikhsundesh website that you've included Namdhari Sikhs in the same category as Nirankaris and other sects and called us all 'Pakhandis'. So who has started the name-calling here?
All I want is for you to remove Namdhari Sikhs from your 'anti-sikh' list and I will have no other problem with your site.
Sat Sri Akal.
Gurbakhsh Singh Ji
Sat Sri Akal
As promised I have written an article in Punjabi on eternal Shabd Guru and corporeal guru and published it on my web site www.sikhsundesh.net. At this time I have written about your Namdhari sect only. However if and when time permits I will write about other sects who build their sectarian Gurudoms on the foundations of Sikhism and pillars of Guru Granth Sahib's Guru Shabd, but refuse to regard Guru Granth Sahib as the sole perpetual Sikh Guru. The word Pakhandi that incensed you so much has been used in the numerous Gurbani verses for the charlatans who run quasi-religious institutions as businesses.
"The singh sabha believers have made several attempts in questioning the Authority of the Namdhari Satgurus and written many pieces of garbage books which make no sense what so ever. All of them were answered back and there was always NO REPLY. Look at the book 'Purakh Guru' published by the Namdhari Darbar about 25 years ago. It was written in reply to the many nonsense books published by the so called 'scholar' dr. ganda singh who is revered by singh sabhias as a historian-god as you will know better than me. But until today, TWENTY FIVE YEARS LATER THERE'S STILL NO REPLY to that book. No so called 'scholar' has been able to answer it back and the only thing left for them to do today is try to ban it. So it may be much wiser for you to not waste your time because unless you can reply to that book, your points are no points.”
Since you are a Namdhari sectarian who is naturally inimical to any person or organization that belongs to anti-sectarian school of thought, I am inclined to ignore your diatribes. However in my article ‘Shabd Guru’ you will find that pro-Sikhism Scholar Dr. Ganda Singh's and the Singh Sabha believers’ opinion about Namdhari writers Nidhan Singh Alam, Inder Singh Chakrverti, Karam Singh Patwari, etc. and Namdhari believers is identical to your expressed opinion about the former.
Unlike you who wrote, "I really DON'T CARE what you have to write in reply ", I learned in early in life that people only care if you do. No body gives a damn about people who couldn't care less.
Charnjit Singh Bal
your reply just goes to show that you've no idea what you're babbling about. This ganda singh is exactly the person I talked about who fabricated all kind of nonsense against Namdhari Sikhs WITHOUT PROOF. And it was this corrupt 'scholar' who was directly slapped in the face by the book 'Purakh Guru' and until today no one has been able to answer it. So what the hell are you even using his material that has already been given an anser for? To fool people regardless of truth? Atleast have some common sense!
Also let me make it very clear to you, I've contacted at least a dozen singh sabhia organizations until today including the SGPC and NONE OF THEM HAS BEEN ABLE TO SHOW ME EVEN A SINGLE BOOK WRITTEN AND PUBLISHED BEFORE THE 1860'S THAT SAID AAD GRANTH SAHIB WAS GIVEN GURGADDI. What more? This book 'Purakh Guru' has been published for 20 years and no singh sabhia has been able to answer it until this very second. All you have done is copied ganda singh's (and not empty words like your pathetic site) quoted from historical literatures that shows pathetic stuff which is a useless propaganda tool used by the singh sabhias and doesn't even makes sense to anyone who has some idea of Sikh history. It seems you've just woke up and started to write this garbage for the hell of it without doing any research yourself. Go out of your house into a library sometime!
So answer me this if you're so smart: Which Granth Sahib was it that was given the Gurgaddi? Your singh sabhia scholars can only make up stories that it was lost to the muslims during the holocausts. Well pardon me but where did it stay from 1708 to the 1730's? Where ever the other Gurus had stayed overnight there was always Gurdwaras built on the spot so why is there not even a single Gurdwara built where this so called 'Jote of all 10 Gurus' must have rested? (that is if it even existed!). Next question, when was Gurgaddi given to Granth Sahib? All other Guru's Gurgaddi Diwas is clearly mentioned and known but the one claimed to be given to Granth Sahib is so messed up that it's not even clear to anyone. Most of your singh sabhia websites claim katak sudi 5th or 6th well I have with me right now a Granth Sahib printed by singh sabhias that claims it to be given Gurgaddi on Katak Sudi 2nd! What the hell is this? Visit http://namdhari.faithweb.com/granthpanth.htm it outlines clearly WITH EVIDENCE once and for all that NO AAD GRANTH SAHIB WAS EVER GIVEN GURUSHIP.
Lastly, it seems you have no background nor knowledge whatsoever about Sikh History so please don't waste my time with this crap. Unless you or any of your scholars can reply to the book 'Purakh Guru' and answer all the questions it raises, I suggest you do yourself a favour and lie still.
All I wanted was for you to exclude the Namdhari Sikhs from your list of 'anti-sikh' but you have made a big deal out of it and tried to act so smart showing off your puny and non-existance knowledge to other people by sending a 'Forward' instead of a 'reply' to me. How silly! Thought you didn't know who you were dealing with did you! So deal with it now brother. If you can't answer my questions, then be a man and do what's right. Use your senses. I don't have time for this flat out lie and children's play. Unless you can show me a book written AND PUBLISHED before 1860's that says Aad Granth Sahib was given Guruship, it is requested you kindly don't waste my nor anyone else's precious time. Oh and don't copy some garbage out of another singh sabhia book by ganda singh. I want FACTS and not PROPAGANDA please.
Sat Sri Akaal.
Gurbakhsh Singh Ji
You ask, "Why is there not even a single Gurdwara built where this so called ‘Jote of 10 Gurus’ must have rested? (that is if it even existed)?" In the vocabulary of celestial Gurbani of Guru Granth Sahib the word Jote or joti means quintessential spiritual philosophy or par exellence theological wisdom that is manifest in the Guru to true Gur-Sikhs through his illuminating Word. Obviously that Jote doesn’t need a temporal adobe (of brick and mortar), but an abode. The Guru Granth Sahib is that sacrosanct adobe in which Sikh Gurus’ Jote or illuminating Word is enshrined.
Contrary to the Sikhism’s primal concept mentioned above, the mythically inclined cultist sectarians erroneously profess that departing Guru’s Soul transmigrates into the succeeding Guru’s body, instead of re-uniting with the primal soul. Hence the Namdharis profess that Guru Gobind Singh Ji performed wizardry and disappeared into the thin air from his cremation pyre and lived underground or incognito for 47 years until he re-surfaced in a place called Bhadra, Rajputana in 1755 AD as Baba Ajapal Singh Ji. After impersonating Ajapal Singh Ji for 57 years including 39 years as a Mahant of a Dera in a grove near Jind he died in 1811/12 AD at the age of 146 years.
To profess that the invincible Guru Gobind Sigh Sahib would live incognito or as a Mahant at a time when Sikh Panth was engaged in a struggle for survival against tyrannical Mogul empire and Ahmed Shah Durani’s genocidal invasions is downright abomination and blasphemy.
In regard to, "All I wanted was for you to exclude the Namdhari Sikh’s from your list of ‘anti-sikh’ but you have made a big deal out of it and tried to act so smart showing your puny and non-existance knowledge to other people by sending a ‘Forward’ instead of a ‘reply’ to me. How silly! Thought you didn’t know who you were dealing with did you" if you read my E-mail dated 21st May 2003 closely you will find it was part of my reply that I sent to you, with copies to others, not a forward.
And from your E-mail correspondence with me, all I know about you is that you are a radical Namdhari zealot who thinks stalwart Sikh scholars Dr. Ganda Singh Ji was "a corrupt scholar who fabricated all kind of nonsense against Namdhari Sikhs without proof and his writings ‘pathetic stuff’ that Singh Sabha used as a ‘useless propaganda tool’". May be you have prestigious credentials that you may wish to send me so that I can publish your dossier along verbatim text of your correspondence on my website www.sikhsundesh.net. By the way as of today 10,000+ visitors have visited my website, that you write "your pathetic site" since its publication. You are the 3rd visitor to send me the negative feedback. One is a Hindu and the other, a pro-Dasam Granth lobbyist Sikh Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba.
In your E-mail of May 8, 2003 you said, "Look at the book ‘Purakh Guru’ published by the Namdhari Darbar about 25 years back no reply to that book." and in the E-mail of May 21, 2003 you say, "This book ‘Purkh Guru’ has been published for 20 years " Surely one is a lie, which one is it? And as for, "Unless you can reply to the book ‘Purakh Guru’ and answer all the questions it raises, I suggest you do your self a fovour and lie still", having read Karam Singh Patwari’s surreal ‘Gur-Itehas Jankari’ I have no intention to read any more of mythological stuff. However, if and when time permits, I will try to write a critique on this book ‘Purkh Guru’ that you keep harping about; and publish it on my website.
You write, "You just woke up and started to write. Go out of your house into a library sometime." Even you should know that, ‘It is better to be late than never.’ And visiting all the libraries in the world is not going to enhance my knowledge of history of Sikhism, one of the world’s five major religions, if I go around wearing prejudicial blinkers like a sectarian votary.
You say, "I have contacted at least a dozen singh sabhia organizations until today including SGPC and NONE OF THEM HAS BEEN ABLE TO SHOW ME A SINGLE BOOK WRITTEN AND PUBLISHED BEFORE THE 1860’S THAT SAID AAD GRANTH SAHIB WAS GIVEN GURGADDI." I suggest instead of contacting a dozen Singh Sabhia Organizations and SGPC, if you go out of your Namdhari cocoon you will find there are dozens of Sikh history books that authenticate Sikhism’s ‘Shabd Guru’ concept and ‘Guru Maneo Granth’ edict on the market. You will not find these books in the cultist Gurus’ Dera.
Or if you read my article ‘Shabd Guru’ you will find references to verses from Gurbani that clearly emphasize Sikhism’s unique concept of ‘Shabd Guru’ and excerpts from the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji, Bhai Nand Lall, Bhai Senapat, (Dasmesh Guru’s court poets), Bhai Chaupa Singh and Bhai Desa Singh (infant Guru’s Baby Sitters/nurses), Bhatt Narbad Singh, Bhai Sukha Singh, Bhai Koer Singh, Bhai Kesar Singh Chiber, Giani Gian Singh, Bhai Santokh Singh, et al that authenticate Dasmesh Guru’s edict ‘Guru Maneo Granth’.
There are references to Mahan Kosh and Gurmat Martund of Bhai Kahn Singh Ji, (the grandson of Sarup Singh Ji, Mahant of Baba Ajapal Singh’s Dera), affirming that Dasmesh Guru Sahib invested Guru-ship in Guru Granth Sahib. You will also find answers to questions raised by ‘Purakh Guru’ and your misapprehensions about different versions of Guru Granth Sahib. I have sifted some more Sikh history resources for the pertinent information on the subject that I have added to my article ‘Shabd Guru’ and re-published it. You can read it on my website or I can send it you if you prefer.
If you are expecting a reply from the SGPC, you are barking up the wrong tree. This so-called mini parliament of the Sikhs has no time to reply to the real Sikhs much less to the sectarian Sikhs. The SGPC and Sikh seminaries are just launching platforms for the political opportunist Sikhs and lofty perches for the so-called Singh Sahibs and Jathedars in the Sikhism’s lucrative temporal hierarchy. And to them the Sant/Mahant Deras, Tuksaals and Dehdhari Gurudoms are humongous vote banks that they can’t afford to alienate even if it means violating Sikhism’s doctrines and their own so-called Hukamnamas.
You should heed your own advice, "At least have some common sense!" At least I have enough common sense to adhere to magnificent House and Sikh Panth of Guru Nanak instead of a cultist Guru’s sect. The Guru Granth Sahib’s celestial Gurbani instills in me the common sense to know that it is un-Sikh to indulge in cultism, occultism and surrealism practiced by the sectarians.
I am grateful to you for starting this debate because I regard it as vehicle to reach as many people as I can and make them aware of the Sikhism’s true concepts, doctrines and Sikh-way of life and save them from sectarian indoctrination.
Charnjit Singh Bal
Your site is a complete bias basically because you copied ganda singh's stuff. He claims Guru Ram Singh to be a Nihang Singh as mentioned on your pathetic website. How stupid is this claim? It does not even makes sense. When the Namdhari's uniform is WHITE, how the heck is this ganda singh even dreaming blue to be the uniform of Satguru Ram Singh Ji when He Himself forbids any Sikh from wearing blue? Is this not too stupid? How can you use stuff written by such useless and brainless writers on your websites? Also you have copied the 'fake' hukamnamas published by ganda singh who got help from an ex-namdhari that was kicked out of the sangat and together they published these fake and pathetic books and articles. What is the point of all this? You are just fooling people becuase you have no idea that ganda singh had to be sent registered mail times and times again to answer back to the author of Purakh Guru, as he mentions in that very book, and he failed to answer each and every question. Do you still consider him a 'scholar' now? A bit about Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, he himself believed in Baba Ajapal Singhji as Guru Gobind Singh too until he was purchased and possibly threatened by the slaves of the british. This may be seen at http://sikh-heritage.co.uk website. Click under 'History and Research' and then 'Death of Guru Gobind Singh Ji'. The author of the mentioned website has done a far much better job than you in researching the truth. He has compared sources from all available areas and not copied some liar's book like you did. So what if you get 10,000 visitors if all you're telling them is a big fat lie that you have no proof to support! Visit the site if you have any care for truth left in your body.
Oh please don't tell me to read history books. I have been doing research on this succession of Guruship for YEARS before you even conceived of doing it. Infact, if it would help, I was unfortunately brought up in a singh sabhia school and even used to believe that the singh sabhias may have been the true sikhs. But after I knew the truth, there was no doubt left. Half of singh sabhias eat meat, others criticize Sants and Babas, the rest fight over places of worship. Where the hell is the Rahet of these people? These are no different than muslims!
So you claim that the Namdharis believe Guru Gobind Singh performed 'wizardry' to live after the incident at Nanded? Well atleast that's better than your pathetic singh sabhia leaders who try to fool people that the Guru committed suicide! Have some shame.
If your religion was the true one, why did Granth Sahib only became Guru after Satguru Ram Singh Ji were sent to exile and the Namdharis placed under heavy surveillence? Why did your ancestors have to torture and oppress Namdhari Sikhs? You obviously don't even know your own history.
Nevertheless, I want to end this useless discussion right here. I have tried to reason with you and even gave you a link: http://namdhari.faithweb.com/granthpanth.htm with a long list of all the evidence a REASONABLE PERSON would need to be convinced of the truth that happened in Nanded in 1708 but you are keep on going on and on about "Shabad Guru" which does not make sense to me. How many time is the word "Shabad Guru" found in Granth Sahib? One? Two? And how many time is the word "Purakh Guru" found? Over a hundred without a doubt!
But still you keep on doing this bias stuff and claim Namdhari Sikhs to be 'anti-sikhs'. Oh well, suite yourself. If singh sabhias, who were the boot lickers and slaves of the british and the traitors and sellers of their own country are "sikhs", then it is a blessing indeed that we are not included as one of you. If you are destined to be a nigura and remain a nigura until you die, there's nothing I can do and I can only pray that God would give you eyes some day.
Sat Sri Akaal.
Gurbaksh Singh Jee
Common decency forbids me to reply to you in the same type of uncivilized language you use to vilify the Sikh stalwarts like Dr. Ganda Singh Jee and Bhai Kahn Singh Jee and Singh Sabha, the only genuinely concerned 19th & 20th century Sikh Institution, that not only saved Sikhism from anti-Sikhism forces but also strived to promote the Sikh cause. I, a humble Sikh, refuse to be drawn into a war of invectives with you.
You are revealing your ignorance about authentic Sikh history when you say, "If your religion was the true one, why did Granth Sahib only became Guru after Satguru Ram Singh Ji were sent to exile and the Namdharis placed under heavy surveillence? Why did your ancestors have to torture and oppress Namdhari Sikhs? If singh sabhias, who were the boot lickers and slaves of the british and the traitors and sellers of their own country are sikhs, then it is a blessing indeed that we are not included as one of you."
If you are not included as one of us Sikhs, why do you call yourself Namdhari Sikhs? May be the cultist Satgurus Partap Singh and Jagjit Singh and devious writers Nidhan Singh Alam and Inder Singh Chakrverti have befuddled your psyche. Consequently votaries like you with sectarian indoctrination can’t or refuse to accept that Namdhari, Radhaswami, Nirankari and Nanaksari sects are offshoots of Sikhism. The so-called Satgurus or Maharaj use Guru Granth’s Gurbani (Sikh scriptures) to entice gullible disciples to these sects, yet they indoctrinate them with cultism that is blatant contravention of Sikhism’s primal tenet ‘Word is Guru, Guru is Word’.
From your slanderous comment, "A bit about Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, he himself believed in Baba Ajapal Singhji as Guru Gobind Singh too until he was purchased and possibly threatened by the slaves of the british." I presume by 'the slaves of the British' you mean Sikhs in general and Singh Sabha members in particular. While we recognize the contributions of Baba Ram Singh Jee and his companions towards the liberation of India from British Imperialism, we do not find any Namdharis, who dared to even whisper against the British slavery after Baba Ram Singh Ji was exiled in 1872 AD to Burma where he died in 1885 AD.
However the pre-independence history of India is replete with the lustrous names of real Sikh freedom fighters (martyrs) like Bhagat Singh Khatker Kalan, his uncle Ajit Singh, Udham Singh Sunam, Meva Singh Lopokay, Kartar Singh Sarabha, Balwant Singh Khurdpore, Bhag Singh Bhikhivind, Hari Singh of Chotian Thotha Singh Ferozpore, Arjun Singh of Malak Ludhiana, Bhagwan Singh of Vring Amritsar, Mit Singh Pandori Ludhiana, et al, written in golden letters.
"I have been doing research on this succession of Guruship for YEARS before you even conceived of doing it.” Sectarian orientation, cultist indoctrination and mythological tendencies must have influenced your research, otherwise how do you rationalize the un-Sikh, occult prejudices and mythical beliefs,
1) The Namdhari Sikh cultist sect uses Sikhism's Guru Granth Sahib that instills Sikhism's primal tenet 'Word is Guru, Guru is Word', as the evangelical tool, but refuses to regard Guru Granth Sahib as the true Guru.
2) The tenth Sikh Guru Gobind Singh Ji eloped from his cremation pyre through thaumaturgy and lived incognito for 47 years and impersonated Ajapal Singh Ji for another 57 years when the Sikh Panth was engaged in survival or annihilation struggle.
3) Mahant Ajapal Singh Ji passed on Guru-ship to the 11th guru Balak Singh Ji who 21 years before his own death, passed on Guru-ship to the 12th guru Ram Singh Ji.
4) 11th guru Baba Balak Singh died on 6 Dec. 1862, but 10th Guru Gobind Singh Ji is still living and so is 12th Baba Ram Singh Ji whose numberless successors Hari Singh and Partap Singh died in 1906 and 1959 respectively.
5) Numberless Mahant Ajapal Singh Ji (Guru Gobind Singh Ji?) passed on the Mahant-ship to Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha’s grandfather, Sarup Singh Ji at same time when he went all the way from Bhaini, Jind state to village Sarwala in District Kattak.
No rational minded person can believe that Mahant Ajapal Singh much less Guru Gobind Singh Sahib would have split his seat into Guru-ship and Mahant-ship. It is common for the imposter Gurus and evangelical opportunists to split religions, sects or cults into factions, but no eminent Guru or religious leader ever split his august seat. That is why sagacious Guru Gobind Singh Sahib discontinued the tradition of incarnate Sikh Guru and decreed, ‘Guru Maaneo Granth’. And no eminent Sikh Guru, true religious teacher or Mahant ever passed on his Gur-Gaddi to his successor 21 years before his death like Baba Balaka Singh did as the Namdharis claim.
You say, "How many time is the word "Shabad Guru" found in Granth Sahib? One? Two? And how many time is the word "Purakh Guru" found? Over a hundred without a doubt!" It doesn't matter how many times a word is mentioned, it is the context in which it is used. Moreover Shabd, Bani, Vaak, Bachan, etc. are synonyms.
And why don't you ever express your opinion on the references to the Gurbani verses and excerpts from Gurus' contemporary writers' works that authenticate Guru Granth Sahib as the perpetual Sikh Guru in my article Shabd Guru? Is it because you can't controvert these or is it the Namdhari orientation blinkers or names like Dr. Ganda Singh, Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha and Singh Sabha or words like Guru Granth Sahib, Shabd Guru, etc that place the mental blocks or dyslexia that prevent you from reading these?
Contrary to your expressed desire, "I want to end this useless discussion right here.” I want to continue the debate, because in you I find a perfect model of a sectarian Sikh who is deriding august Sikhism. To expose sectarianism that is feeding on Sikhism, I am going to publish verbatim texts of our present and future correspondence on my website.
Talk about common decency. A little child would know when he has lost the debate but not you! Until now you have put forth only lies and more lies WITHOUT A SINGLE PROOF, only whatever bias is published by your anti-Namdhari scholars. Talking to you is a waste of my time. So I'm not going to continue with this senseless 'discussion' anymore. I've talked to MANY singh sabhias but you appear to be an exceptionally dumb one. Hope I don't ever have to come across any such low-grade person again. This will be my final message to you and if you want to put up my message for the world to read be sure to have the guts to put them ALL up and not only bits and pieces like how your singh sabhias scholars do to fabricate history.
Your knowledge of Namdhari Panth is so little that its laughable. You probably did not even know that other than Baba Sohan Singh Bhakhna, Shaheed Bhagat Singh was also a Namdhari and wrote so many articles about Satguru Ram Singh Ji and even recieved Gurmantra from Satguru Partap Singh Ji a few months before he became Shaheed. And yet you have included him as one of you? How funny. Did the singh sabhia leaders or SGPC even supported Shaheed Bhagat Singh before he died? I really don't think so! So get your facts straight.
The problem is that you have no knowledge and yet you keep making up stupid claims that the Namdharis did not do anything after 1872 A.D.! What about the hundreds of Namdharis that died in Jallia Wala Bagh? Was there even a single singh sabhia Leader there? NO! But remember that prominent Namdhari leaders such as Maharaj Nihal Singhji and even the famous writer Nidhaan Singh Alam were very much present there. Your singh sabhia 'sikhs' even declared that Dyer who shot all those Namdharis and other Desh Bhagat Sikhs to be a "Sikh" (go to www.punjabilok.com and search for "Jallia Wala Bagh Revisited"). So it is a blessing indeed that you do not count us as one of you. And if you do, why did you write us as "anti-Sikh" on your pathetic site on the first place? Have some common sense. It's like I'm talking to a toddler who has just taken birth without any knowledge at all.
For your kind information the Namdhari Sikhs were against the british from day one to the very day India regained freedom. Where as your ancestors were its bootlickers and mere slaves who sold their own country until one of the Gurdwaras ran by the singh sabhias was itself under siege. If that didn't happen even today you'd be their boot lickers! And now you are making up stuff that the Namdharis did not do anything after 1872! How stupid is this? How many patriotic movement and seminars did the Namdhari Darbar host after 1872? Go to http://namdhariveg.sytes.net and read under "Namdhari Singhs and Dharma". I've posted some lines below for your puny brain to absorb some knowledge:
"The Daily Tribune of Lahore published an article on 27th December,1929: "Pundit Jawahar Lal Nehru was riding a horse. It was a beautiful white charger. Behind him were the G.O.C and other officers of the volunteers corps. The most striking feature was the Sikh cavalry dressed in white spotless khaddar and wearing stylish turbans. The Namdharis with their flowing beards presenting a thrilling sight."
When Netaji, Subash Chandra Bose, organized the AZAD HIND FAUJ with its centre in Bangkok (Thailand), Namdhari Sikhs of Thailand helped him in each and every way possible.
Subash Chandra Bose had rightly said that; "The banner for freedom given to Indians by Satguru Ram Singh and the sacrifices done by Namdhari Sikhs will be a matter of great pride for the Indians. The Namdhari Sikhs, experienced for three quarters of century for their peaceful non-co-operation movement, are expected to carry forward the banner of freedom in the forefront and will encourage sacrifices. Guru Ram Singh is the first leader of the peaceful non-co-operation movement in India."
In 1945, the Vavel Conference was held in Shimla. All the patriots and political parties participated in the conference. Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji also reached Shimla with the Namdhari Sikhs. At that time, Pt. Nehru asked Sri Satguruji, "What do you want? What are your dreams?" Satguru Partap Singh Ji, while expressing the patriotic view of the Namdhari Dharma, replied, "My want, wish and demand is only India's freedom". On account of these pioneering efforts & sacrifices of Namdhari Sikhs and all other patriotic forces, India attained independence on 15th August,1947.
Pt. Nehru had later written in the 'Satjug' (A Namdhari Newspaper): "No Indian can deny the importance of efforts put in by Satguru Ram Singh and His followers Namdhari Sikhs, seventy five years ago in achieving freedom of the country. Congress merely followed the path shown by them and attained Independence." "
So What do you have to say now? I really got no time to waste on people like you. Do your own research without being partial and when you get enough knowledge, MAYBE I'll talk to you.
LET ME ALSO MAKE IT AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND BUT IT'S VERY SIMPLE. I SENT YOU AN EMAIL IN THE FIRST PLACE BECAUSE YOU HAVE LABELED THE NAMDHARI SIKHS AS "PAKHANDIS" AND WHAT NOT ON YOUR PATHETIC WEBSITE THAT IS A TOTAL BIAS. IT IS YOU WHO STARTED THE NAME-CALLING AND WHAT NOT, DON'T FORGET. I DO NOT CARE IF YOU BELIEVE IN AAD GRANTH OR DASAM GRANTH OR EVEN THE BIBLE AS YOUR GURU. I DO NOT EVEN CARE IF YOU CALL A BOOK A "LIVING" GURU OR WHATEVER YOU WISH. ALL I WANT IS FOR YOU TO KINDLY PRAISE YOUR GURU WITHOUT DISRESPECTING MY RELIGION. ALSO I DON'T CARE IF YOU USE CHEAP METHODS OF POSTING MY MESSAGES ON YOUR WEBSITE TO SHOW THE WORLD YOUR IGNORANCE BECAUSE I NEVER EXPECTED ANYTHING BETTER FROM AN UNREASONABLE PERSON LIKE YOU ANYWAY.
SO GET A LIFE! AND STOP BUGGING ME COZ I GOT MUCH BETTER THINGS TO DO THAN WASTE MY TIME WITH YOU.
Sat Sri Akaal.
Gurbaksh Singh Ji
Even your obnoxious E-mail messages are not going to deter me from criticizing in my humble way and exposing anti-Sikh forces that corrupt Guru Nanak’s quintessential message because as a Sikh I am obliged to spread it in its noble form to the best of my humble ability.
Perhaps your impetuosity impedes your faculty to read my E-mail message or Article in its entirety because if you did you would find that in my ‘Anti-Sikhism’ article I have included Radhaswami Nanaksari, Narankari and Namdhari sects, spurious Sant Babas, some self-serving so-called Jathedars, Singh Sahibs, radical Hindu organizations Arya Samaj, R.S.S. and pro-Dasam Granth lobby Sikhs in anti-Sikh forces.
I have published the verbatim texts of our correspondence, tilted ‘Gur-Sikh or Sectarian Gur-Sikh’ on my website. However to keep my E-mail messages concise I included only the spiteful excerpts pertaining to Sikhism, Singh Sabha, Dr. Ganda Singh and Bhai Kanh Singh from your E-mail messages.
You seem to erroneously think that all non-sectarian Sikhs are Singh Sabhias as you call them. Sikhism is much greater than the sum total of its genuine or quasi parts. And the Singh Sabha of late 19th and early 20th century happens to be one glorious chapter in the history of world wide Sikhism. Ever since the inception of S.G.P.C. on 15th November 1920 and Akali Dal on 14 December 1920 the role of Singh Sabha movement in the Sikh temporal affairs has diminished to subtlety.
I happen to personally know Shadeed Bhagat Singh’s village people who can debunk your absurd claim that Shaheed Bhagat Singh was a Namdhari. Moreover I myself used to live only a couple of Kilometers from Khatkar kalan, Banga, Jalandher. I didn’t see a single Namdhari during Shaheed Bhagat Singh’s yearly memorial celebrations Fair in his village.
I have written in my article ‘Shabd Guru’ all that there is to know about Namdhari cult and published it on my website. Of coarse, through your biased cultist blinkers you read it all as lies including the references to Gurbani verses and excerpts from works of Guru Sahibs' contemporary authors that profess that ‘Word is Guru’ and Granth Sahib as Sikhs perpetual Guru. Consistent with Guru Nanak Sahib’s Aasa dee Var slokes on Guru Granth Sahib’s pages 470 and 473 I resist the temptation to use impertinent language you use. In fact I urge you to read these sage slokes and temper your foul language.
Charnjit Singh Bal
To your “I wish god would give you eyes to see that there is true satguru in this day and age. If guru Gobind Singh Ji gave the gurgadi to the granth sahib ji, than why are the sikhs fighting against each other. there have fights in the gurudawara front of the granth sahib. why did your guru or granth sahib not stop the fight?”, I say you don’t have a clue about Sikhism’s fundamental concepts including that of the Guru. It is not your fault, it is the nature of sectarian orientation and cultist indoctrination that rinses off rational thinking from man’s intellect and instills militaristic mantra, “yours is not to reason why, yours is but to do and die” vocalized by Rudyard Kipling.
Guru is a spiritual Guide that inspires quintessential spiritual consciousness and instills excellent moral values and socio-cultural harmony. The ‘Shabd Guru’ i.e. Guru Granth Sahib is the, the paragon of spiritual knowledge and temporal wisdom that a Sikh can acquire only through intelligent study. To expect Shabd Guru to act as the judge, jury and executioner is ignorance. There is a close relationship between wisdom and tolerance and ignorance and violence. The Sikhs those who fight amongst themselves fail to grasp Guru’s edification.
kbIr swcw siqguru ikAw krY jo is^w mih cUk] AMDY eyk n lwgeI ijau bWs bjweIAY PUk] p: 1371
Sikhism professes rational approach to exalted spiritual awareness. Its founder Guru Nanak tried to extricate the mankind that was mired in cultism, Avatar-ism, Idolatry, myths, taboos and prejudices. But sectarian Gurus keep promoting the same old occult religiosity. Guru Granth Sahib’s Gurbani urges a Sikh to practice religiosity and praise the lord (through Guru’s Word) intelligently.
iDRgu iqnHw kw jIivAw ij iliK iliK vycih nwau] KyqI ijn kI aujVY KlvwVy ikAw Qwau]
scY srmY bwhry AgY lhin n dwid] Akil eyh n AwKIAY, Akil gvweIAY bwid]
AklI swihb syvIAY, AklI pweIAY mwnu] AklI piVH kY buJIAY, AklI kIcY dwnu]
nwnuk AKY rwhu eyhu, hor glW sYqwnu]1] rwgu swrg kIvwr, mhlw 4 pnW 1245
AKrI nwmu, AKrI swlwh] AKrI igAwn gIq gux gwh] jup swihb, pnW 4
I am not denying the existence of Satguru, however my concept of Satguru is ‘Guru’s illuminating Word’ enshrined in Guru Granth Sahib as opposed to that of Namdhari, Nirankari, Radha-swami, Nanaksari and hoards of other numerous cultists, whose concept of Satguru is limited to his corporeal persona. Each of these cults professes that their guru is ‘The Satguru’. I wonder what is the opinion of each of these cults about the Satgurus of other cults?
Namdhari Satguru is not the first, last or the only Sikh Satguru-pretender to the Guru Nanak’s Gur-Gaddi. Daatu, Prithi Chand, Ram Rai, Dhir Mal, Gulab Rai, et al coveted and used ignoble means to usurp the Guru Nanak’s august Gaddi. The Bandaiis too claimed that Guru Gobind Singh Ji passed on Gur-gaddi to Banda Singh Bahadur. In 1885/7 Baba Khem Singh Bedi proclaimed himself as the 11th Sikh Guru.
Meenay, Ram Raaiaye, Dhir Malliaye, Gulab Raiaye, Gangu Shahiaye, Handaliaye aka Niranjaniaye and some other cults who tried to exploit Guru Nanak’s Sikhi have come and gone. Only guru Nanak’s real Sikhi with Guru Granth Sahib as the lighthouse of spiritual consciousness has survived.
“dear veer ji am aware that gurbaksh did you give the website of old documents. if you think those documents are fake, than the same goes to you about sub sikhom ko hukam guru maneo granth as well. there was no evidence of the creamation of guru gobind singh ji... guru nanak dev ji in their old sanak saki or i forgot where guru nanak dev ji states it, guru nanak dev ji themselves talk about sri satguru ram singh ji, how satguru ram singh ji will show a hard path..as a sikh brother to another.. let me just give you some little remarks about namdhari's. Of course you are not going to believe me, but i will just give you a general idea of the namdhari panth and its history. Satguru Ram Singh Ji is 187 years old. He is still alive and Sri Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji is sitting on their throne till his return.”
The rhetorical excerpt from your e-mail that I am inserting verbatim tells me that you do not want to engage in rational dialogue but simply want to foster your ridiculous mythical and stereotypical cultist beliefs on me. Since you are not abiding by the rational debate rules I must ask you to end this debate and let me get on with writing critiques on numerous mythical granths and articles on intriguing writers of these ludicrous granths, cults, satguru-pretenders, imposter Sant Babas, unscrupulous quasi-Sikh leaders, semi-literate and arrogant Jathedars, et al, that are exploiting and/or feeding on life-blood of Guru Nanak’s Sikhi.
And I, as a rational and analytical minded Sikh to you, a stereotypical cultist sectarian Sikh, let me tell you that Sikhism blends religiosity with rationalism and pragmatism. There is no place in Guru Nanak’s quintessential Sikhi for mythical avatar-ism, cultism, voodoo-ism, ritualism, blind faith witchcraft, wizardry, prejudices, and taboos.
In Sikhism there are three entities, Onkar, Guru and Sikh. The Guru is the sole intermediary between the Onkar and the Sikh. For Guru Nanak’s real Sikh the illuminating Word i.e. Granth Sahib is the perpetual Guru. The Sikhism fundamental concept of Guru is manifest in Gurbani’s Mool Mantra and Japjee Sahib, I suggest that you read it intelligently
you need to get your facts right about the namdharis o.k. ssa
I got all the facts I need about the Namdharis right. O. K.
Charnjit Singh Bal
NO YOU HAVNT YOU PAAPI NIGURA
sri satguru ram singh ji sahai
charanjit singh, sat sri akaaaal
someone has been e-mailing you on my name (kukakhalsa) in my absence and probably has used strong language. so i apologise on the behalf of that person. i also do ardas to satguru ji to help you understand whats true and whats false and give you "sumat". thank you. sat sri akaaal
Sat Sri Akal
To help you trace this person who is sending me the nasty E-mails from your address, please note I received one Email, “you need to get your facts right about the namdharis o.k. ssa”, on 2 march 2004 at 3:51 PM. And to my reply “I got all the facts I need about the Namdharis right. O. K.” I got another E-mail “NO YOU HAVNT YOU PAAPI NIGURA” on 3 March 2004 at 4:00 AM, 33 minutes before your own E-mail that I received the same day at 4:33 AM. Also please note, that although this person was using a different address before, the invectives such as ‘PAAPI, NIGURA’ in his limited vocabulary and the English language slang sound familiar to me.
In reciprocity to your “i also do ardas to satguru ji to help you understand whats true and whats false and give you "sumat", I pray to the almighty God to give you the intelligence to understand Guru Granth Sahib’s philosophy, Gurmut, concepts and pragmatic religiosity.
Charnjit Singh Bal
Veerji Sat-Sri Akaal
seem to come across as a very educated person; albiet a very opinionated one. On
the one hand you display an ego that prompts you to vilify those who lead
humanity to the path of God; on the other you profess to be neither a Saint or
even a perfect Sikh. So what makes you so qualified to pass judgement?
course our interpretations of the Bani of our Satgurus differ. But let us agree
that Satgurus from Satguru Nanak Devji and Satguru Gobind Singhji
endevoured to bring the whole of Humanity together as one, discounting their
differences. All the Shabads I have read on this issue teach me thus. Nowhere
have I read that, let us divide ourselves according to our different beliefs and
create rifts and enmity.
your understanding of God as per the "ORIGINAL SIKH BELIEFS" is
somewhat misconstrued: Yes God cannot be seen or comprehended by our human
senses: When He is in His NIRGUN form. He has another form: SARGUN If you were a
true devotee of God as per the "original Sikhi" you would be aching
for Darsan of this SARGUN form of GOD.
I implore you again: REFRAIN FROM YOUR BLASPHEMING. Stop hyping yourself and
other ignorant souls to this hatred of those who immerse themselves in the Lord
God. From your words one can only assume you have no love for anything other
than your own egotistical version of what Sikhi should be.
have no quarrel with your beliefs and faith in God, but please, I repeatedly
implore you: do not collect this burden of sin on your shoulders. By all
means tell people of the Greatness of our Gurus' Bani: I will join you. But when
you blaspheme against others' beliefs I will oppose you. IT IS NOT WHAT WE ARE
TAUGHT - whether we believe in only One, Ten Gurus or Twelve. Namdharis
should also not allow themselves to be dragged down to a level where they
indulge in trading insults, no matter what the provocation.
I do not need to visit your site to gain elucidation of Gurmat. I have my
Satguru for that. A Satguru who teaches that all paths of FAITH will lead man to
his Creator. All indulgences in manmat are futile to this end. All personal
satisfaction of winning battles of ego are not only futile, but lead us further
away from God.
once again Veerji, let us put aside all differences and sit together, like
brothers, in the presence of our mutual Satguru. Your Satguru and my Satguru are
one and the same, He who created, not just you and me, but the entire cosmos.
Who are we to say He is mine and not yours? The difference is all in the mind.
things that you make so important and argue over and spread hatred over: they
are of no avail. Naam japo mere veer, love thy neighbour. And you will surely
have Darsan of our Satguru. He promises so in His Gurbani!
forgive me for addressing you as Saty Bhogal because your signature doesn’t
tell me whether you are Master, Mister, Mrs. or Miss.
Your diatribes, innuendos, subtle remarks and dubious accusations are beginning to show your true colours. What makes you, Saty Bhogal, so qualified for you to pass judgment on me and accuse me of being opinionated, ignorant soul, egoist; and question my qualifications to pass judgment on ‘those who lead humanity to the path of God’? And in whose opinion are ‘those who lead humanity to the path of God’?
You either inadvertently or deliberately distort my statement ‘our interpretations of Satgurus differ’ to ‘our interpretations of the Bani of our Satgurus differ’. As for ‘our Gurus endeavored to bring whole of humanity together’; it was to bring about racial and social-religious harmony. You cannot accuse someone, who fraternizes and socializes with all races castes and creeds, of dividing and creating enmity. And on the religious front, if anyone is to be held responsible for dividing the Sikh Panth, it is undoubtedly the No 11, 12 or 13 Satgurus who have carved cultist fiefdoms out of magnificent realm of Guru Nanak’s Sikhism.
Your cultist indoctrination must have prompted you to state, ‘your understanding of God as per the "ORIGINAL SIKH BELIEFS" is somewhat misconstrued’. If you were a true devotee of God as per the "original Sikhi" you would be aching for Darsan of this SARGUN form of GOD. What is your description or version of ‘SARGUN form of GOD’? I, who according to you is an ignorant soul and whose understanding of God is misconstrued, can only wonder if Namdhari, Radhaswami, Nirankari, Nanaksari (Harnek Singh Gill), Sacha Sauda’s Gurmit-Ram- Rahem Singh Noormehal’s Asutosh, or Harvant Singh of Pallian is the real ‘SARGUN form of GOD’?
can save your imploring and telling me that your Satguru and my Satguru are the
same. Because my Satguru is Guru’s eternal Shabd i.e. Guru Granth Sahib while
yours is not. If calling spade a spade is blaspheming, so be it. That is what
another self-styled 11th Sikh guru pretender, Khem Singh Bedi and his
flock propagated against and hunted to an early grave Prof. Gurmukh Singh who
criticized the guru-pretender. This is the price I am prepared to pay for
expressing candid opinion about Sikh cults and Anti-Sikh forces. Besides I am
more than compensated for the abuse I get from likes you, Gurbakhsh Singh,
Budwal and another anonymous Namdhari, by the appreciation I get from
Regarding, ‘if you have difficulty in understanding the concept from the Adi Guru Granth Sahib's Shabads’; I find Prof. Sahib Singh’s ‘Sri Guru Granth Sahib Derpun’, in ten volumes, very useful source in understanding Gurbani’s quintessence and Sikhism’s original concepts, doctrines and pragmatic religiosity. I implore you to get the same, if you haven’t got it already.
Web Site:- www.sikhsundesh.net